Amtrak Forces LA Photographer to Delete Images

Despite several embarrassing incidents for Amtrak in the news recently (in NY and DC), Amtrak employees are still woefully uninformed when it comes to photographers’ rights. 

A local LA photographer, who goes by ShutterBuda, was taking photos at Union Station downtown yesterday morning for about an hour when he snapped an Amtrak employee who told him to not take photos. ShutterBuda continued shooting, when another Amtrak employee told him that he didn’t have permission to take photos. At this point, a commuter chimed in that he also objected to his picture being taken.

This guy, who claimed to be an ex-Guardian Angel, quickly became belligerent and escalated the situation into an ugly scene, yelling that ShutterBuda didn’t have permission to take his photo and threatening to “take him down” and “smash his camera.”  All three were now demanding that he delete his photos. In quick succession, the Amtrak employees called a manager over and the manager called a security guard.

amtrak-2 Photo by ShutterBuda

Not knowing how the law applied inside Union Station, ShutterBuda complied with the demands to delete the images. “Out on the street I never would have deleted those photos – I would have said no,” he says, “but I was kind of in a grey area there.” Plus, he says, they were being abusive and he didn’t want to deal with the scene.

Soon enough three LA County Sheriffs were on the scene.

If you can imagine it: Four Amtrak employees and three sheriffs for a man taking photos of commuters inside a public building.

The sheriffs backed up the Amtrak employees, with one claiming, ShutterBuda says, “that I needed permission from whoever owns Union Station and that I should comply with [the Amtrak staff] because they’re ambassadors for the law in some sense.” One sheriff asked to see the camera to check that the images were deleted – all of which ShutterBuda was able to get back later using recovery software.

amtrak-1 Photo by ShutterBuda

The issue, it seems, was not ShutterBuda being there (i.e., trespassing or security risks) but that he didn’t have permission to be there. Which is a blatant fabrication. You do not need permission to shoot handheld in a public place. And you certainly do not subject yourself to the seizure of your images if you do so. That is downright illegal and possibly a Fourth Amendment issue. A court order is required for anyone to view your photos.

There’s also the issue of whether Amtrak and the sheriffs violated copyright and intellectual property laws by deleting these images, which of course is well beyond their pay grade. They are just blindly following some order they think they have the right to enforce.

In January, the  National Press Photographers Association asked Amtrak to stop harassing photographers and to clarify their policy regarding photography in their facilities. Their associate general counsel said that the rail service is developing new guidelines that will be posted on the Amtrak web site. He also reiterated that photography is permitted in their stations “in spaces that are open to the public, and is limited to situations where it does not interfere with passengers and crew.”

It goes without saying that ShutterBuda’s photography in the lobby area of Union Station was not affecting the trains, passengers or crew in any negative way – or, really, in any way whatsoever.

In the meantime, let Amtrak know this has to stop on this feedback form or by calling 1-800-USA-RAIL and speak to a customer service agent about where you can send a complaint.  

And please contact the following District 14 representatives, the LA County Transit Service Bureau and the NPPA to voice your concerns.

Jose Huizar – Councilmember, District 14
City Hall Office
200 N. Spring Street, Rm 465
Los Angeles, CA 90012
Phone: (213) 473-7014

Henry Casas, Deputy Chief of Staff, Community Affairs, District 14
200 N. Spring Street, Rm 465
Los Angeles, CA 90012
Phone: (213) 473-7014
Fax: (213) 847-0680
Email: Henry.Casas@lacity.org

——————————–

LA County Sheriff, Transit Service Bureau
Phone: (323) 563-5000

LA County Sheriff, Additional Complaints Hotline
Phone: (323) 526-5541

——————————–

National Press Photographers Association – NPPA
3200 Croasdaile Drive, Ste 306
Durham, NC 27705
Phone: (919) 383-7246
Fax: (919) 383-7261
info@nppa.org

Jim Straight, NPPA Executive Director
director@nppa.org

A special thanks to ShutterBuda for personally providing us with these deece gems, and allowing us to tag them with our site’s name.

That way whenever someone watches these images on a site not pertaining to photography and the law (we all know these things do get around), they’ll see the URL and hopefully come to our site where they will be able to learn about photographers’ rights.

Unlike other blogs on the web, our site is not about us patting ourselves on the back and repeatedly telling ourselves how great we are, however. If we have to put our URL on a video or photo that was provided to us (granted we have permission of the owner), we will do that in order to get the photographers’ rights message out to more people.

More of Chad’s work can be seen here.

43 Responses to “Amtrak Forces LA Photographer to Delete Images”


  1. 1 keith February 11, 2009 at 8:09 pm

    I would be inclined to imediately file a copyright registration form VA for any remaining images and attempt to seek statutory damages for any lost images.

    It remains to be seen whether or not the statutory fee structure for copyrights can be used for intentional destruction of intellectual property.

  2. 2 Tobie February 11, 2009 at 10:41 pm

    I wouldn’t be advertising the fact that you can recover deleted photos so widely. Now they ask you to delete photos, tomorrow they may actaully seize your memory card or even camera.

  3. 3 walker February 12, 2009 at 12:31 am

    are the amtrak employees wearing the flat-topped hats in the photos? if so, i can understand why they get antsy, being photographed in a willy wonka uniform. then again, i’d quit my job first, rather than wear that.

    doesn’t justify any of this bullshit, of course. so crazy, that one company can continually get so much bad press about one issue … it’s as if they have a hidden agenda.

  4. 4 Sheridan Flynn February 12, 2009 at 12:42 am

    I always find it strange that people who raise issue with being photographed in public have seemingly no problem being photographed and filmed hundreds of times a day by security surveillance cameras.

  5. 5 helly February 12, 2009 at 9:17 am

    i would sue the living crap out of Amtrak.

  6. 6 ordinarymaine.com February 12, 2009 at 1:51 pm

    Let them confiscate the card or camera. If an LEO or security guard takes your property without cause they can be charged with theft or burglary. I would hazzard a guess that my attorney would see to elevate the charges to aggrivated burglary because of the misuse of authorty (badge and gun).

  7. 7 ShutterSmasher February 12, 2009 at 3:19 pm

    I would take your camera and stick it up your ass. Fuck you and your rights to take pictures of me or others. Get a life dude.

  8. 8 discarted February 12, 2009 at 3:49 pm

    ShutterSmasher

    You do realize that private companies and our government are videotaping you pretty much everywhere you go today. Just look around, their cameras are everywhere. There are numerous hours of you on some hard drive that belongs to some private company or your local police department.

    Are you okay with that? Would you take their cameras and stick them up their asses?

    And please don’t post anonymously here. This isn’t secondcitycop.blogspot.com. Be accountable, have some credibility.

  9. 9 Chris Osborne February 12, 2009 at 4:27 pm

    Isn’t this the same railway that was having a photo contest that was supposed to be centered around photographs of their trains?

  10. 10 jun February 12, 2009 at 6:51 pm

    I tend to agree with everyone that there is a first-amendment right to take photos in public areas like Union Station. That being said, could the whole situation have been avoided if ShutterBuda had simply said “sure, I understand” to the first Amtrak worker who objected to having his photo taken? Was the photo of this employee so vital to ShutterBuda’s purpose so that situation spun totally out of control? I suspect that ShutterBuda could have found an Amtrak worker willing to be photographed in connection with his work by simply asking. It just seems that common sense, a sense of propriety, and a willingness to compromise are all in such short supply these days.

  11. 11 discarted February 12, 2009 at 8:22 pm

    Jun-

    Did you listen to the audio interview because Shutterbuda clearly states that is exactly what he did?

    It might be a good idea to listen to the interview before commenting.

    On a side note, just because somebody does not like what you’re doing while in public does not me you have to stop or obey their demands.

    If i see you on the sidewalk and tell you to do something, would you comply? I’m an average joe, every day citizen just like the Amtrak employee and the pedestrian who threatened Shutterbuda?

    Is threatening somebody who took your picture while in public okay?

  12. 12 jun February 12, 2009 at 9:44 pm

    Discarted,

    Thanks for proving my point. You’ve got a lot of anger pent up there.

  13. 13 JCH February 12, 2009 at 10:47 pm

    I’m not sure any point was proven actually. I think those were valid questions to ask – what as a society are we okay with and where do we draw the line? I didn’t sense any anger.

  14. 14 discarted February 12, 2009 at 11:30 pm

    JCH

    Thank you.

    Jun-

    It’s interesting that you tried to turn my comment around on me by saying that there’s a lot of pent up anger in it, when the questions I asked you were completely valid, but went unanswered by you. More importantly, the comment you left was absolutely not true.

    Just curious, so what is the point that you were trying to prove or thought you proved? What did my remark to you prove?

    This entire situation with Shutterbuda could’ve been avoided if he was never confronted by a belligerent pedestrian, and an overzealous Amtrak employee who completely crossed the line and broke the law. We wouldn’t even be having this discussion.

    I’m sorry but Shutterbuda is the victim in this case, not the people he legally photographed while in public.

    And please don’t post anonymously…you lose all credibility.

  15. 15 jun February 13, 2009 at 7:01 am

    post anonymously? at least I use my name.

    Let’s take your question: If I see you on the sidewalk and tell you to do something, would you comply? No, I probably would not; I would just walk on and ignore you. I sense that you would turn the moment into a lecture/argument. Similarly, I suspect you would react to someone on the road cutting in on you with road rage rather than just chalking it up to the person having a bad day and driving off.

    Hope you have a good day, Discarted, reveling in your “credibility.”

    • 16 rich April 8, 2010 at 2:06 pm

      i agree jun, on my way to work if someone is tailgating 2 feet behind my bumper hanging there whether i speed up or slow down just busting my balls..let me tell you if i got into work and some camera wielding fool is sticking a camera in my face in the name of art even after i told him to fuck off i’d smashed that camera over his goddam head! right or wrong.i think if someone says no and you keep shooting you deserve whatever you get.as far as camera’s everywhere no shit! we all know that, but they are shooting an area not just on you in your face. you know they are there but they are there for everyone.it’s a personal space thing and no should be no.

      • 17 discarted April 8, 2010 at 3:43 pm

        rich-

        you claim, “no no shit! we all know that, but they are shooting an area not just on you in your face. you know they are there but they are there for everyone. it’s a personal space thing and no should be no.”

        what if the photographer is standing directly underneath where the surveillance camera is, shooting the area and not just your face. is that okay with you?

        how do you know what a surveillance camera is focusing on or what a photographer is shooting simply because the camera is pointing in your direction? you don’t.

        what if someone sets up a surveillance camera for questionable or illegal purposes. just because you see a surveillance camera does not mean it was placed there for the good of mankind. it could be shooting down your girlfriend’s low cut blouse.

        also, i know a lot of photographers that if you tried to smash their camera over their head you would have a problem. check that anger and the road rage before someone else does it for you.

  16. 18 Rod February 13, 2009 at 7:44 am

    Jun-
    huh? that made no sense at all

  17. 19 discarted February 13, 2009 at 12:20 pm

    Rod-

    Thanks.

    Jun-

    It’s funny that you are still trying to post yourself as some sort of victim here because somebody is asking you very simple and valid questions based on comments you left. But rather than just answer all of the questions you were asked, you continue to try spin the situation and turn my remarks around on me in a negative way and assume things about me.

    Debate me about this. It seems like you have some strong opinions about this issue.

    Is threatening somebody who took your picture while in public, okay?

    Why do you think Shutterbuda should’ve bowed to the illegal demands of an overzealous Amtrak employee and a belligerent pedestrian when in your last comment you said, “No, I probably would not; I would just walk on and ignore you,” when I asked what would you do if a stranger approached you in public and demanded that you do something.

    Your remark seems to fall under the mantra of “do you as you’re told, but not as I do”.

  18. 20 Jeffrey Smith February 13, 2009 at 12:51 pm

    It’s probable to me that the law enforcement officers, Amtrak employees and others immediately deemed the photographer to be a security risk. I know that Amtrak has been proactively engaged in heavy antiterrorist measures since 9-11. The problem as I see it, is that ever since Bush starting using fear mongering to get the American people to back his war-profiteering agenda, everyone, especially those perceived as being under constant and immediate threat, are overly sensitive to anything suspicious. This includes the taking of photos where daily transit operations exist;l materials which could feasibly be studied by some violent group planning to do great harm. At the least, Amtrak should provide some sort of public sign which states, “Photographers, if you wish to take photos inside our building(s), please report to the Office Manager and present proper ID.” Amtrak could then issue the photographer (or tourist, art student, etc.) a piece of paper giving them permission to take photos. Yes this is Orwellian, but it would give all involved peace of mind, and make it known that the photographer is there for the sake of creating art, not a journal for destruction.

    On the otherhand, if photographers get in the habit of asking for permission for rights they already have as provided in the 1st Amendment, when will these permissions be rescinded? Ultimately, “It’s easier to ask forgiveness than it is to get permission.” -Rear Admiral Grace Murray Hopper -Even where permission is guaranteed by law, and unnecessary.

  19. 21 Bob Beamesderfer February 13, 2009 at 3:00 pm

    Much as I’d love to respond to Shuttersmasher, no troll is worth the effort.

    The issue of security being breached by photographs being taken of of items or scenes or people that are in public view is a red herring. Countless photos of many public places already exist online and in print. Now add in Google Earth and other satellite photos available for purchase from the government, plans of buildings that are part of the public record AND most important, the availability of high-resolution, easily concealed video cameras and the idea that an individual taking photos openly and honestly is a security threat is nothing more than an ignorant charade on the part of officials who most often don’t possess the authority to say shit.

    I will say that anyone attempting to take my camera will provide the opportunity to test of the rigidity of Leica M-series camera when used as a medieval mace.

  20. 22 Bob Beamesderfer February 13, 2009 at 3:01 pm

    *I will say that anyone attempting to take my camera will provide the opportunity to test of the rigidity of Leica M-series camera when used as a medieval mace.

    Anyone other than law enforcement, that is.

  21. 23 Bob Beamesderfer February 13, 2009 at 3:42 pm

    Here’s the answer to the question about Union Station’s owner. It was a company called Catellus Development, which was sold last year. Link to LA Times story about the sale:

    http://articles.latimes.com/2005/jun/07/business/fi-catellus7

    The company’s history dates to the 1850s.

  22. 24 Jeffrey Smith February 13, 2009 at 5:23 pm

    Hi Bob,

    “The issue of security being breached by photographs being taken of of items or scenes or people that are in public view is a red herring. Countless photos of many public places already exist online and in print. Now add in Google Earth and other satellite photos available for purchase from the government…”

    Keep in mind that satellite scanning cannot get into tram tunnels nor underground bus depots, etc. It not likely that satellites would be controlled by smaller independent terrorist groups. More than likely it would be larger foreign governments aimed at some sort of first strike, or massive retaliation. Also, photos which already exist are time sensitive. From a security perspective uniforms change, employees change, interior architecture changes -and so forth. All things an ill-intending ilk would use for planning. Furthermore, cameras which are often used as security measures are just that. Devices devoted to security are typically managed by company employees whose job it is is to keep tabs on suspicious activity(s).

    The police and employees were wholly wrong to demand what they did. But an officer’s job is to insure the peace, Even when the person who is innocent gets reprimanded (or their rights violated) in order to keep it. Not saying it’s fair, just, or a logical practice, it’s just the way LE thinks and unfortunately works. And yes, it needs to be addressed and changed.

    “…plans of buildings that are part of the public record AND most important, the availability of high-resolution, easily concealed video cameras and the idea that an individual taking photos openly and honestly is a security threat is nothing more than an ignorant charade on the part of officials who most often don’t possess the authority to say shit.”

    I agree.

    I really think there needs to be more dialog between photographers, LE and officials. Blogs like this voice these concerns and affectively begin that dialog.

  23. 25 Mark E. Smith February 14, 2009 at 9:32 am

    We send how much in taxpayer dollars to Amtrak? And now they
    treat places like this station like a high security military
    base? Crazy arrogance on their part.

  24. 26 David Justin Lynch February 15, 2009 at 6:59 am

    I am an attorney. The law is clear–in a public place, you have NO PRIVACY RIGHTS. Just by being there, you consent to others seeing you and taking your picture. This issue has been litigated and re-litigated everywhere in this country and all of the Courts have come to the same conclusion. The man who objected to having his picture taken was simply wrong. He had no right to prevent anyone from photographing him. His annoyance was simply the price he pays for living in a free society. Moreover, Amtrak’s own regulations explictly permit photography in any area open to the public so long as it does interfere with its operations. The issue of whether a public agency is in the wrong when its employees don’t follow its own rules has also been repeatedly litigated everywhbere and the public agencies and their employees have ALWAYS lost. I would advise the photographer to sue everyone involved. And I would be happy to represent him.

  25. 27 luap777 February 18, 2009 at 2:52 am

    Thanks for covering these stories, nothing will change until people are more educated on the law.

  26. 28 Chris February 18, 2009 at 3:34 pm

    I’m ignorant on this issue but besides common sense, what deems places like Union Station “public area.” If I was stopped by a guard, I’d like to be able to state some facts rather then look like an idiot even if I was in the right. I know sidewalks and streets are widely acknowledge as public so it’ll be hard for a guard or an employee to argue otherwise, but what about buildings?

  27. 29 John Grant February 28, 2009 at 7:35 am

    As a copyright attorney, a couple of quick thought on the copyright issue (the idea of using a copyright infringement theory to recover damages from Amtrac or others):

    (1) The first question is whether forcing ShutterBuda to delete the phots was even copyright infringement to begin with. Copyright law grants the author of an original expression the exclusive right to do the 6 things outlined in 17 U.S.C. 106. It’s unclear to me whether “forced deletion” actually infringes one or more of those rights.

    I suppose one could argue that protection against forced deletion might be found in the “penumbra” of rights since it becomes impossible for an author to exercise his section 106 rights once the photos no longer exist. I haven’t looked for case law on that theory, but it certainly isn’t clear from the face of the statute that copyright law would protect against forced deletion.

    (2) The damages that ShutterBuda could recover would be limited to his actual damages resulting from the infringement (assuming an infringement occurred) plus the profits of the infringer resulting from the wrongful act. While copyright law does have a statutory damages provision, such damages are only available when the copyright holder has registered the work with the Copyright Office before the infringemen occurred.

    (There is a 3-month grace period that applies to published works–registration must occur before the infringement or within 3 months of publication–but because of the quick action of the Amtrack employees, there was no opportinity for publication therefore the 3-month grace period wouldn’t apply.)

    So if we’re talking actual damages (plus profits of the infringer, but I assume there aren’t any here), ShutterBuda wouldn’t have much to go on, particularly since he was able to recover the photos eventually anyway. The strongest argument for actual damages would be for him to have Amtrack pay his costs of recovering the photos, but beyond that damages would get pretty speculative.

    I’m not saying that Amtrack wasn’t completely in the wrong for its actions, only that Copyright Law may not be the best pathway for redressing that wrong.

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  30. 32 Andy Sullivan July 29, 2009 at 2:21 pm

    Yes, you have the right to photograph freely in public places, which is as it should be. However, if an ordinary Joe, just going about their business expresses a preference not to be photographed in a non-aggressive manner, then I would have no problem obliging. Just because you CAN do something doesn’t necessarily mean you HAVE to. I think showing some civility will get you further in the long run. I’m not particularly talking about this case where there does seem to be an enormous overreaction by Amtrak.

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